Quotes from the interview
Quotes from the interview
- For a century Turkey has been engaged in active denial of the AG (Armenian Genocide). No evidence that Turkey would recognize AG by 2015.
- Since the Hrant Dink assassination youth in Turkey are more mobilized…he was a redefining figure for Turkey's recognition of the AG…I see young Turkish individuals willing to say "we recognize the AG."
- Turkey has difficulty recognizing the AG because it would be the "unravelling of [its] history."
- As we approach the 100th anniversary of AG, I fear increasing propaganda from Turkey and Azerbaijan…it is my fear 2015 could be very tense time between Armenia and Azerbaijan-Turkey.
- Armenia has a unique opportunity (because where it is) to become a bridge between East and West; Europe-US and Iran, and between Russia and the Near East. Armenia could be a place where people can come to listen to each other and come away with a better understanding of each other…to a place to come together.
You think you are pure? Your description of "Armenian" does not match that of today's Armenian. Where is your apricot skin? What I see is only dark skin which is either from Persian/Arab or Kurdish genes. You also mingled with Christians or pagans. Sorry, you need to wake up. There is no pure race. You are one of the most mixed races, like other Anatolians. But if you say you have pure Greek/Persian/Arab/Kurdish/Christian genes, I would say "maybe". That makes more sense.
Reply to Bulig and Fatma
Dear Bulig and Fatma,
I am writing to you here as requested by the editor. He kindly provided another forum for us to discuss the topics that you are discussing.
First question for Bulig. I really appreciate you commenting as a Hamshen on this forum. Your name is actually very interesting. How did you get it? Is it Hamshen? What does it mean in Turkish or the Hamshen language?
Next, just an observation for Bulig, no one said "pure Armenian" until you said "pure Armenian. " What was discussed was genetic similarity. Why do Turks and Armenians share almost identical DNA? I would love to get yours and Fatma's thoughts on that. Why is that Turks and Armenians are almost identical, but the Turks are not as close in DNA with other near east ethnic groups?
Fatma, you did not respond to what the Holy Prophet Mohammad (ṣallā Allāhu ʿalay-hi wa-sallam) stated:
"Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah's Apostle said, "The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Turks; people with small eyes, red faces, and flat noses. Their faces will look like shields coated with leather. The Hour will not be established till you fight with people whose shoes are made of hair." (Volume 4, Book 52, Number 179 Bukhari)"
Bulig and Fatma, what are your thoughts on what Allah's Apostle stated? It is very interesting that he described Turks as Mongoloid in origin and that now Turks are not Turkic in race, but Turkic in only language. Also, why did Mohammad (ṣallā Allāhu ʿalay-hi wa-sallam) make a prophecy that the end would not come until Muslims would defeat the Turks?
With love and respect,
I do not mark differences between people on racial or religious lines. I cannot enter a dialogue on subjects that I know nothing about. To me people are people!..
We are on this earth for a short time. I have lived it fair. I will continue to stand up on issues that I am sure about and honestly.
Re: People are People
The whole issue of the Armenian grievances against Turkey is based on the fact that the Ottoman Sublime Court did not treat all of the Sultan's subjects equally as 'people are people'. Instead, some were treated as herds ("Raya" in Turkish/Arabic), among whom prominently stood the native Anatolians, Armenians.
Let us not forget that adult Armenian males, in the interior of the Ottoman Empire were forced to wear dresses. They were not men enough to wear pants and serve in the imperial army according to the government. The Ottoman Turks remain complicit in brutally enforcing such practices whether they were written in laws or not. I invite you to see the attached picture which is being posted publically for the very first time. It's from the archives of Miss Effie Chambers, an American missionary who served Armenians in the Ottoman Empire for 19 years.
This historical reality should not be altered at will as latter-day revisionists are inclined to do in their attempt to present the long ago interred people from Brantford, Ontario as Turks. They were the sultan’s subjects for sure, but Turks they were not, ethnically or by Ottoman laws or practices of citizenship.
I am not implying that that historical reality should forever be the basis of Armenian-Turkish relations, but that Turks, as the present inheritors of that terrible period of their history, should come to terms and assume responsibility, even though they were not there. The descendants of the Armenians of that period continue to bear the brunt of that horrid reality to this day.
Your name finally rang a faint bell. Were you in Montreal in the late '90s? If you were, you must be the same person who used to make the same wild, inaccurate, hysterical assertions about the Armenian-Turkish conflict.
I guess since back then you had already achieved 100% command of the many layers of the conflict, you haven't delved deeper into the topic. Full command of the topic in 1999; an exact duplicate in 2013. I envy your unique achievement of perfect knowledge. Reminds me of Nirvana.
Perhaps I should be grateful that you–lolling in your sunset years– have time for us, the ignorant and hate-filled people at the bottom of the mountain, and impart some of your "white as driven sludge" knowledge to us.
Pure Armenian II
I will try to explain where I'm coming from. I don't have a problem that we Anatolians share the same genes. My problem is with the insistence on the one-sided influence in genes. That's why I asked you if you are pure Armenian, because some of letter writers were saying that Turks have Armenian ancestry but that there is no mixed blood among Armenians. You just give but don't take? That's not valid in any circumstance.
I also said that you are just a pure mixture of Christians, but not Armenians. I agree some part of what you say: Turks from Anatolia look like Western Armenians, but Azeris don't look like Turks: they look more like Eastern Armenians. So Eastern Armenians are not identical with Western Armenians. I can tell who is Armenian if he/she is Eastern Armenian. So the question: if you all have the same ancestry (Eastern or Western ), how come you are so different from one other?
Let's go from skin color which is effected by genes. You claim that you belong to the white race, but can you tell that you are whiter than Turks (Anatolian)? I can't. Another question: Since Turks from Anatolia mixed with all group of whiter Anatolians, how come you lost your white/apricot skin and became less white looking? How did this happen? Where did it come from? Persians? Kurds? Arabs? Turks?
Race is just a cultural thing; it's not about genetic background. You can have Turkish or some other genes. I suggest that you check the breakdown of the genes in Armenians, Turks, other Asian, Balkan, Middle Eastern, Caucasian peoples. You are talking about your influences on Turks. Maybe you should accept their influences on you too.
Regarding Bukhari's claim: Someone who has read the original text could help us, as third parties often add or subtract, The Hadith states that Tatars and Mongols are also Turks. So if a prophet can foretell that in the future Istanbul will be taken by Muslims, couldn't he see the future of the Mongol invasions? Please don't say ''We found your weakest part.'' Our only weakness might be that we have not learned. In another Hadith, Muslims are advised not to fight with Turks, unless they fight with you. So did he change his mind? I don't think so.
Bulig is a Hemsin word. My father calls me "Buligum/Buliges".
Dear Bulig, Once again
Once again, I never said pure Armenian.
What you can't deny is the high degree of genetic similarity between Armenians and Turks. According to your argument (and numerous scientific studies), Turks are genetically closer to Western Armenians than Azeris, and Azeris are genetically closer to Eastern Armenians than Turks. We agree.
There is no such thing as a mixture of "Christians" as to be a Christian is to believe in something. It's like saying one has communist or capitalist blood.
As to why Eastern and Western Armenians are different – good point – genetic drift and lack of interaction. Conversely, if Turks and Turkic speaking people are the same, then why are Turks from Turkey genetically closer to Western Armenians than Azeris, and Azeris genetically closer to Eastern Armenians than Turks?
As for skin color – I have never made those assertions.
Finally on to Bukhari – Please provide the hadith which provides Muslims are advised not to fight with Turks.
Also, if Mongols are Turks, then why don't Turkish Turks look like Mongols anymore? Also, does Allah's Apostle expect Muslims to fight Turks?
Reply to Varto
You did not say "pure Armenian". You said that Turks have Armenian genes. Either you or someone else said that Aremenians never mixed with others and told of the one-sided effect on genes. Please reread what you wrote. Then I ended up asking you if you are pure. You are Armenian according to what? Genes? What exactly did you pass to Turks? A mixture of Christianity (as you claim no interaction with Muslims) genes? I have studied enough genetics to understand that Turks are a mixed race.
Are you saying that Armenian genes can be identified immediately in Turkish genes? No way. If you research the gene map of Turkey. It's the same for you, if you are Western Armenian. I have no idea about Eastern Armenians as they are not close to us. The result of several studies say Turks in Anatolia are indigenous to Anatolia. I'm proud of that. But that is a problem for racist Armenians and Greeks. When it comes to being indigenous, most of you call us Asian/Mongol. But then you raise the Turkish genes issue to show your pride or whatever you call it. Maybe the Turkish government made up some stories, but you also can't make your minds up in order to decide what exactly Turks are. You have many things to overcome. I hope I made myself clear on that.
Here is from the Hadith about Turks:
''Let the Abyssinians alone as long as they let you alone, and let the Turks alone as long as they leave you alone''. This is from the Kitab al Malahim/4288… and accordingly all Muslims accept was the Istanbul conquest. And that was for Mehmet II and his people. His people were still the people with dominant Turkic genes, were they not? You can find many example but it's important to know who is explaining the meaning. The sentence you sent (''shoes made of hair.") has had many [interpretations] as to whom he was referring. But they conclude the term of "Turk". Like Arabs who called all Anatolia "Rum", although Armenians also live in Anatolia. Are you "Rum"? No. but after hellenization, they called all ethnics Rum, till the 14th century. So your race generalizations are not valid for all sub-races.
Reply to Bulig
I referred to article Are Turks acculturated Armenians? in Discover Magazine. The premise of the article is that Turks are acculturated Armenians. What this means is that Turks are Armenians who adopted Turkish culture and language, but are not ethnically Turkish.
Bulig, you essentially said the same thing, where you stated that Turks are indigenous to Anatolia. The difference between my and your premise is that you added judgmental commentary that Armenians are racist, whereas I only look at the facts and engage in an honest discourse.
Bulig, based on what you are saying–that Turks are indigenous to Anatolia–please look up the historic maps of Anatolia. You will see who lived in those lands before the Ottomans and the Seljuks. Armenians are also indigenous to Anatolia. That means we are brothers. You are my Armenian brother who has accepted a Turkish identity. You are not ethnically Turk, just culturally.
Bulig, if you need to agree with what we are saying by injecting your pejorative commentary, so be it.
On to the Hadith of Sahih al-Bukhari. Those are very interesting points you made. So, when Prophet Mohammad says that "the hour will not be established until you fight with the Turks," will you or Erdogan fight those Turks? You also said that those Turks could be Tatar or Mongol. To which set of "Turks" was Allah's apostle referring to when he made the prophecy that "[t]he hour will not be established until you fight with the Turks"?
Furthermore, my Hadith and your Hadith reconcile with one another. Your Hadith talks about how Muslims should behave toward Turks by leaving them alone at that particular moment. My Hadith focuses on Mohammad's prophecy of what needs to happen for the end to be established, and that is by fighting the Turks.
Every Hadith has a story behind it
I am not familiar with the magazine you mentioned, but there is DNA research by Europeans and Turkish academics. There was even a newspaper article which said ''We aren't the ones who came from Asia?''
I don't want to be judgmental, but it is a fact that Armenians and Turks always fight about their origins. The Turkish side wants to be more Turkish than it is; the Armenian side wants Turks to be more Turkish than they are. Otherwise, both side will have problems.
Yes you are right that being Turk or Armenian is cultural. You, like other Armenians, have similar genes as Greeks from Anatolia, some Caucasians and people from the Balkans, in addition to Middle eastern. My point is that Anatolian is a mixture. According to scientific research, you can't say that it's solely Armenian. The maximum percentage is 20% to 24%. This is also common in south Caucasus, southeast Europe, and the Near East. Don't forget that before the Ottomans, you were helenized and heavily mixed.
Erdoğan would fight against Mongols? Yes. So the Hadith became true. You are looking from the smaller window at the meaning of "hour". Hour, in general, applies to the end of the world and to a big disaster at a certain time. You can't just look at the wording, because the original text does not say the hour will be established the day you fight the Turks, at least not the race named in that specific sentence.
Every Hadith has a story behind it. Hadith includes writings by people who had seen the prophet and people who were around the prophet. One of the reasons Muaviye ( if I'm not mistaken ) gave for not attacking the Turks is because he had heard from prophet not to do so. Hadith doesn't says–as you stated–to stay away from the Turks. It said something like "don't touch them". A prophet supported the weak and was against cruelty, whatever the circumstances. Why would he advise to stay away from the Turks if they were cruel? We need an explanation from someone who is more knowledgeable: not you or me.
Possible etymology of “Bulig”
"Bulig is a Hemsin word. My father calls me 'Buligum/Buliges'".
Fatma's and your participation in this ongoing discussion is much appreciated, though I may not share some of the views that both of you hold. I wish there were more people from Turkey. I have noticed that in the early hours of mornings in Canada, such as now when it is almost 4:30 am, there are multiple viewers of the Keghart.com website from Turkey, yet only the two of you have been involved so far. It's "baffling", but I won't digress from what follows. Probably I may reflect about the above observation some other time.
Thanks for sharing with us personal information such as your father calling you "Buligum/Buliges".
I think it's the Eastern Armenian word "բալիկ", which means son in an endearing way, or child. Your father probably is pronouncing it more like balik with a soft k. In Armenia the letter "բ" is pronounced as "b" in English, whereas in Western Armenian it is close to "p". You won't find the word "բալիկ" in Western Armenian dictionaries.
The suffix "-um" in Turkish means mine, I think. Correct me if I am wrong, because I am not an expert of Turkish language. I have picked up a few words/expressions from my grandmother who could speak only Turkish and the local Musa Dagh dialect of Armenian language. My father spoke fluent Armenian but could not understand the Musa Dagh dialect. Hence they would speak in Turkish with each other. For a very brief period in mid 60s, I studied spoken Turkish using a Teach Yourself book when I visited Adana, my father's birthplace. That's the extent of my knowledge in the language.
Back to the word "Bulig". The suffix "-es" like its Turkish counterpart means my, mine in Armenian.
Hence, your father, I reckon, is calling you "My dear cuddly/endearing son/child", the first part pronounced like Eastern Armenians, whereas the latter half in the Western fashion (Bolis, Istanbul).
I hope my analysis is correct. I'd like to hear opinions about this etymological exercise from keghart.com readers, some of whom are masters of languages.
Reply to Dikran
I don't expect everyone to have the same thoughts.
Thanks for the etymological analysis. We know what it means: it's not for boys or sons. It's for daughters only. For boys, I think Eastern Armenians use "değa" or something like Hopa Hemsin but Hemsin. My region does not use it. Time to time they call "lagod" (small dog) or "kotit" (like small bear) but I can't tell the exact word which is equal to "Bulig". Also the pronunciation is not with "k" but more like the Turkish "g" ).
Bulig or whatever your name is, your time has expired. No more of your wolf in sheep's clothing game.
Earlier in this thread, you pretended that you were Hamshen, that your name is Bulig. Helpful Armenians went out of their way to explain to you the etymology of your name.
But after playing the Hamshen card for a couple of weeks, you faltered and exposed your Turkish identity in your August 25 letter. In that comment you wrote: "…When it come to being indigenous, most of you [Armenians] call us [Turks] Asian/Mongol." 'Us' Turk Bulig?
Go back to your Turkish "scholarly" books and don't waste our time with your fantasy genealogy, history, maps…and helter skelter quotes from the Hadiths.
How to Handle the Truth
When I mentioned racist Greeks and Armenians, I meant people like you.
First of all, I'm Hemshinian and do no need to play games. Second the genetic research I mentioned has nothing to do with me. It was done by many researchers. What's important is how you handle it. So far you can't. Isn't that it?
Shall I ask you what's bothering you? My comment that Turks are indigenous to Anatolia while you wish or imagine them to be Asian? Or you are offended because I said Armenians also don't look like one other?
If you have an opinion, I would like to hear. If not, don't play with low-level talk. Advice to you: learn the basic things; Google; do some research.
In your "reply" to my suspicions that you are a Turk–and not a Hamshen–you typically roamed all over the place (called me names; referred to genetic research; talked about the benefits of Google…) but you didn't reply the question. Once again: you inadvertently referred to yourself as a Turk. They were your words, not mine. Remove your Hamshen mask and admit that you're a crypto Turk. The game you played–for a short while–is a familiar ploy by dime-a-dozen Turkish propagandists. Read my letter again before you leisurely delve into unrelated topics.
Reply to Hayorti
This will be the last comment posted by Bulig. If he prefers to continue his repetitive, personal dialogue(s) with Varto and others then he should write to them directly . Keghart will facilitate the correspondence.
First of all, you know what you wrote or you forgot. Let me remind you: there was not a question of what I'm. It was more about your fantasy re Turks. If you had asked me, at the beginning, you would have received the reply, as I don't have fear or shame. I'm not like you, hiding in words. I prefer to be direct, if people are direct. And genetic stuff is not the subject I broached. I just got involved because I have read about it. These researches are shocking for the racist here, but much more shocking for people like you. Sorry don't blame me: blame God about having similar genes of Turks.
Regarding what I'm, I'm a Turk like any other Hemshinian. Is that problem for you? Can you handle it? Anyhow, it's not my business. So please re-read what you wrote to get the reply your need.
When you started this dialogue, you said you are Hamshen. That is, an Armenian whose ancestors had been forcibly converted to Islam centuries ago.
Now comes the amazing piece of intelligence from you. You wrote in your most recent letter: "I'm Turk like any Hamshenian." The assertion that Hamshenian equals Turk must come as breaking news to hundreds of thousands of Hamshens in Turkey, in the Caucasus and in Russia, not to mention to Armenians in general. For someone who claims to have some knowledge of genetics and ethnology, your observation is bizarre, to say the least.
If expressing myself clearly means that I am hiding behind words (your phrase), then you are not entitled to my crystal-clear replies to your obfuscation.
Bloodline vs Culture?
I will carry on our discussion on a general path.
First, regarding my comment "being Turk like any other Hemsinian…''. It's a fact. It's what all Hemsinians in Rize would say. Being Turk is like being English and being British. Genes or bloodline are important, but more important is the culture and environment. The latter has more influence on you than your bloodline. If there is a culture named ''Turkish'' then Hemsin is Turk more than Armenian, sharing close or almost identical culture which one can see in Rize-Artvin or the Black Sea area, even though we all are from different bloodlines. I don't think any Armenian would disagree with that.
I hope I made myself clear.
My roots are in Artvin. At a very young age I was told by my grandfather never to forget or deny my roots. I am Muslim, and that will never change. I don't trust people like you because, like my grandfather and father, I sense danger from your words; danger in a cultural sense. I trust only my grandfather's stories about what happened in 1921, when he was attacked by Turkish soldiers, and his brother was killed because they spoke our language, which is still called by Turks Ermeni.
"Yes Hemshenzim, yes Muselmanim, yes 100% Ermenim". It's only in the last 15 years that Turkey finally admitted there are Kurds in Turkey and that they are not Mountain Turks. Most of our people I speak with openly say they are Hamshen Armenians. I will proudly raise my children as Hamshen Armenians and "Insallah" (God willing), they will never have to call themselves anything but Hamshen Armenians. I say to Armenians: the sooner you accept Muslim Hamshen Armenians the better.
Mek meg hokink
Armenian or Hemsinian?
I am also suspicious about people like you. Since we all have our own histories, we can not judge. For instance, my grandfather also survived the war because he could speak the language [Turkish]. It had nothing to do with Turkish soldiers. We did not talk about it much as hate will not solve our problems. Would you blame people who were protecting their land? For your information, most Hemsinian had died in Russian/Ottoman war and most of the soldiers in the Russian army were Armenian.
Regarding your roots, I cannot tell if you are a true Hemsinian. In my research, people of Artvin were most probably of eastern Armenian origin, not Hemsinian. If you know the history from the Armenian side, we considered to be in western. You might say why do I differentiate? I differentiate according to language and customs. Since Artvin people use mostly eastern Armenian while Hemsin use a language close to western. If you put those people in one room and asked them to speak the language, they would probably not understand one other. People who had no outside influences (interactions with neighbors, etc.), kept the language in its original form. Those who did not, most probably had interactions, meaning mostly Artvin area and Erzurum. Our customs are also different. So yes, you are Armenian but maybe not Hemsinian. Maybe you should do more research about your roots. I did about mine. You can be proud of your nation but it doesn't mean you are better than others.
I'm Hemsinian and live in the Hemsin region with a culture that you call ''Hemsin" (tradition, customs etc). We are free to raise our kids as Armenian. We are not Turks. We group ourselves according to various criteria. The Hemsin and Armenian are far apart in religion, language, customs. The hate, which I sense from your words, makes the distance even bigger.
Regarding Kurds, you have to understand one thing. Turks and the Turkish government are two different things. We always knew that the Kurds are a nation. In Turkey everybody know who they are. I can tell you who is Horum and who is Laz in my region. I m sure it is the same for the Kurds/Zazas etc. So you are giving outdated info. I would appreciate it if you gave relevant information and not memorized information which is a waste of time.
To Keghart editors
The editors of Keghart spend considerable time in editing illegible comments with spelling and grammatical errors. At times they try to guess what is said.
Keghart.com takes pride in not misrepresenting. Take note that this is Bulig's last entry that will be allowed to be posted for a variety of reasons. No editing has been attempted.
Dear Keghart editors.
I will be appreciate do not make correction according to your own wording as you are totally missleading and giving false info whereas I dont mean..
Here is the correction from my previous post as you indicate something extra whch was not true at all..
My grandfather survived because he could speak a language which was NOT turkish but Hemsinian ,close to armenian!!!..
You are doing it time to time till now I did not care but now you are actually talking behalf of me .. I appreciate if you be objective…and only do the grammatical correction !!!!.
Another Hemşin here.
I too am a Hemşin (Hemshin) like Bulig is.
I agree completely with her on everything she says.
I am a 100% Turk by blood/culture.
I do not see any similarity between us and Armenians.
The speculations on Hemşinli people done by some Armenians such as Simonyan can not be considered seriously since can't go beyond claims without scientific academic proofs.
Request to Publisher
Please let Bulig correspond with us through Keghart. He is an interesting debater. I thought he and I had settled the question of our ethnic origins. We are Indo-European and, hence, we will have some "meridional" look (olive) and some alpine look (apricot). This does not mean inter-breeding with other nationalities, except that it did happen during and after the Genocide. As a result of forced islamization, Armenians who remained (forced marriages, forced adoption, forced conversion) in historic Armenia now look different from Armenians were were deported and thus retained their identity.
The Hamshens are not the only people who have betrayed their own (according to us). Look at the French today: they were the eldest daughter of the Church and now are the leading atheistic society. So please allow those of us with different ideas and beliefs to debate and thus encourage research and civilized interaction.
I find Bulig's letter to a Hamsheni living in Australia highly objectionable. After behaving in his previous letter, Bulig has reverted to his usual mode of spouting personal insults.
More importantly, Bulig is confused or uninformed. He is Hamshen… then he is a Hamshen Armenian…then the Hamshens are Turks. To disperse his confusion (if that's what it is), Hamshens are Armenians who centuries ago converted to Islam so that the Turks wouldn't slaughter them. Period. Got it, Bulig. Simple. One sentence.
In an earlier letter Bulig also tried to mock the observation that many Turks have Armenian blood, but Armenians don't have Turkish blood. Let me explain to you, Bulig. Many/some Turks have Armenian blood because they kidnapped Armenian women, girls, and little boys. They forcibly converted Armenians to Islam; they turkified them. Thus one now can find Turks who have Armenian blood. Armenians don't have Turkish blood because we don't marry Turks or Muslims, unless the alternative is persecution or death. Thus Eastern Armenians, who are mostly survivors of the Genocide who fled from Western Armenia to Armenia, have no Turkish blood. Likewise for the Diaspora Armenians who are the descendants of the survivors of the Western Armenians who spread all over the world, fleeing your admiring friends' yataghan.
Bulig, quit wasting our time with your nonsense, and don't insult well-meaning Armenians who have unsuccessfully tried to open your mind to the truth. But if I read you, you will probably tell me that there ARE Armenians in Istanbul who are the offspring of Armenian/Turkish marriages. Yes, all twenty of them.
Dear Bulig “Palig”
Dear Bulig "Palig"
When you say "Turks" or "Turkish" do you mean the people and the language living in the artificial state of "Turkey" or Turkmenistan? If your answer is the first state then all Armenians should return to the so- called state and repossess their lands and belongings because most of our grandparents were from that state and spoke the language. Religion is irrelevant. It has nothing to do with genes. And language will evolve.
PS. There is no pure nation in the world. If you call yourself Hemsin, then I am Mousadaghtsi and a proud Armenian
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