Armenian Jerusalem Besieged

31 comments

1. Armenian Jerusalem

   Thank you for your comments about the state of the St. James Brotherhood. As a former Jerusalemite, I have noted another challenge to the Brotherhood: due to the difficult post-1967 years (the repressive Israeli Occupation decades) Brotherhood numbers have declined. As a result, the clergy devotes its time wholly to the guardianship, protection, and management (in addition to participating in church services) of Church properties.

   There was a time, long ago, when St. James Brotherhood members did research and published books about our Church history, national history, illuminated manuscripts, and Armenology. Some even wrote poetry. Now the almost-defunct St. James Press used to publish the SION (quarterly) in those halcyon days.

2. Us – The Armenians

   What is it with us the Armenian People? We have been suppressed by every bloody country you can name. USA pressuring for the stinky ratifications, Turkey threatening again and again after 95 years, Azeris wanting to grab Artsakh and declaring war with us, and worst of them all Israel not sharing the holocaust and genocide with us, and now kicking Armenians out of Jerusalem. We cannot go on like this and we must put an end to all this injustice – enough is enough for Armenia and Armenians. We either succeed or vanish forever.

   We have survived this much and I think we can survive forever but we have to fight back against all odds. Kurds are doing it and their numbers are similar to ours – I say an eye for an eye and a sword for a sword. That’s the only way to be. There is no justice in this world, countries are all too busy for their own geopolitical interests and revenues, and who cares about us.

   We must stand united and we must make ourselves heard over and over again.

    

3. Armenian Jerusalem

   There has to be a much bigger than life approach to this never ending conflict which is always, systematically won by untrustworthy Israel. They have the U.S. What do we have?  Europe?… We wish.

   1. As a bible believing

      As a bible believing Armenian, we must do what the word of God says. "I will bless those who bless you, and curse those who curse you". Genesis 12:3

      As Armenians, if we want to be blessed by God and prosper, we must at all times stand by Israel and bless Israel, and pray for the peace of Jerusalem. The land of Israel was chosen and mapped by God, who are we to stand against God? Salvation is of the Jew. Jesus Christ our Lord is a Jew, to love the Jew and Israel is to love our Lord Jesus Christ, to hate Israel and the Jew, is to hate our Lord Jesus Christ.

      1. Naive faith of fundamentalist Christians

          

         Here we go. What Martirossian writes is the essence of Zionist Christian ideology. I say ideology rather than theology because Christian fundamentalist religious tradition is manipulated by Zionists for political ends. These Zionist Christians ignore or are not aware that there is no room for them in racist Israel. They are not aware that Israelis are using the naive faith of fundamentalist Christians to advance the political and nationalistic aims of Zionism. It’s a waste of breath to debate the issue with these drugged sheep: anytime you try to have an intelligent debate with them about this issue, they quote the bible. Circular argument. A dead end. A book of legends, pseudo-history, dubious miracles (autonomous pregnancy, people walking on water, one fish turned into a thousand, a man talking with Satan, the return of a man from the dead, and rise of another not only from the dead, but his flight to the sky–I guess there was less pollution then) is used as the ultimate proof that what they say is a verified historic narrative.

         But it becomes irresponsible to ignore these simple-minded fundamentalist Christians because they–in their blind faith–support a racist, theocratic, militaristic, expansionist state which has stolen Palestine and continues to mistreat Palestinians, including Armenians. Note Martirossian says nothing about Palestinians or the plight of Armenians. I am sure she doesn’t care–as long as Zionist Israel rules supreme. I am certain that if Christ appeared in Jerusalem today, he would be deported by Israeli goons as a lunatic–if not terrorist–Christian Palestinian. 

          

      2. Where is Christian Justice?

         Stella S. Martirossian,

         I can’t argue with your faith, but I feel very sorry for your mind and soul. What a twisted message you want to share with us!

         "As Armenians, if we want to be blessed by God and prosper, we must at all times stand by" Armenia and not what you are preaching.

         After all what you have read in the article and the comments, you are indirectly telling that it’s OK for Israel to confiscate Armenian lands. You call yourself a Christian. Where is your sense of Christian Justice?

4. Kurdish population: 50+ million
   Herosouhi, the Armenian and Kurdish populations are not close in number.

5. JerUSAlem Armenians.

   Thank you for your article concerning  Armenians of Jerusalem. The conflict within the clergy is control of the Brotherhood of the seat of St James. Money and Sex has  been the issue during Yeghish’s reign and it is still the same.

   Torkom  should have shaved some of the clergy, but he did nothing and  some clergy are taking advantage of the situation.

   You need the Diaspora Armenians’ pressure on the Pariarchate to  include  lay civilians with experiance, education and and no personal interest. The fact that there is a Bank account in USA  for the Armenian Patriachate’s use with the condition that AGBU has placed that a civilian accountant will see that the money is spent  correctly , and not fro the personal pockets of some clergy.

   In the past, a cvilian Kaghakasti Armenian was always a member of the Synod. The seat of the local Armenian was neglated by Yeghishe and Tokom also did not want any civilian to be part of the Synod.

6. Jerusalem is a manifestation of what ails us.

   Put Jerusalem down as another example of collateral damage as an offshoot of the discord that has been fabricated by the diaspora. Somebody above wrote, "We must stand united and we must make ourselves heard over and over again." The Armenian diaspora can’t even agree to disagree! Our religion and society work under the cover of a myriad of umbrellas. "No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine." John 15:4   When will Armenians learn that lesson? Who stands to profit from our discord? Certainly not us.

7. Let the president of Armenia

   Let the president of Armenia visit the sacred Armenian sites in Jerusalem and show his concerns and the importance of its protection. He does travel all over the world and  should stop being disengaged with his people. Let him visit San Lazarro and anywhere else there is an Armenian presence. By the same token, the Catholicos isn’t chained to the compound in Etchmiadzin.

   I, for one, have been waiting  for leadership to come from Hayastan.  

   1. Reply to Darwin

      It makes lots of sense what you are proposing. I might add that the Minister of the Diaspora should engage herself in such matters rather than wasting her time organizing seminars in Yerevan. Those meetings  serve only and only one purpose: expanding the circles of friends and what not for PR purposes.

      Many of the conferences and seminars that the Ministry is either sponsoring or participating in can competently be organized by NGOs. "Thankfully"  there is no scarcity of them either in Armenia or the Diaspora. They keep on mushrooming by the day. One wonders who is financing them in Armenia where poverty is rampant, and thus cannot be supported locally.

8. Toss out the corrupt and immoral elements.

    

   Without being critical of the ailing Patriarch Torkom Manoogian, I pray his successor makes his own accession a time of renewal, resurrection, and re-dedication for the St. James Brotherhood. Reading the editorial, I get the distinct impression that a long-overdue house-cleaning is in order. The word "garkazourk" comes to mind. Toss out the corrupt and immoral elements. In plain English: "Good riddance to bad rubbish." While an anti-corruption drive would not, by itself, resolve all the challenges of Armenian Jerusalem, it would be a great and inspiring start.

9. Shavarsh, let the concern for

   Shavarsh, let the concern for Jerusalem and anywhere else our people have a presence, come from the highest authority. We don’t need a visit from "Hillary" as a broker. Torkom came back to Jerusalem with the full blessing of Catholicos Vasken – bless his soul – so it’s about time our Russian Armenian compatriots accept their responsibility – not just fund raising events – for all Armenians.  We want leadership? Then let it come from our spiritual home. The diaspora has been waiting too long for a signal from Armenia.

   Pope John Paul touched my heart along with the rest of the world by his association and pilgrimages to visit his people. Are Armenians less capable? 

   When Catholicos Vasken visited New York to inspire us over Karabagh, Armenians came by the bus loads. I never felt prouder. 

   Let  Catholicos Karekin do the same. No clergy or anyone else can pilfer even one more inch of sacred land away in Jerusalem. Until that day comes, I will continue to pine for my people.

   1. Vehapar took the first plane out

      Dear Darwin, thank you for your suggestion. I have been told by a Jerusalem friend (so it’s hearsay) that when Vehapar visited Jerusalem a few months ago, to help end the acrimony within the St. James Brotherhood, he was told by the members of the Brotherhood not to interfere in the affairs of the autonomous entity. A disapointed Vehapar took the first plane out.

10. Vrej, It’s hard to believe

    Vrej, It’s hard to believe that to be so since Torkom has had such close ties with Etchmiadzin. Can it be that there’s a revolt against the archbishop? How times have changed! There was a time when Torkom was in the running for the top job. But then again, nothing surprises me anymore. I wonder whether this thick headedness is not just isolated to Jerusalem. Are there any westerners in the Brotherhood? Are there any non Russian Armenians in  Vagharshapat?

    The bottom line is the feeling of isolation in Jerusalem. Do those that still live there feel that they’ve been left to their own devices? It’s just how the Armenians of Iraq must have felt when nobody would stand up for them. Knowing that Jerusalem has no moral support is akin to rubbing salt into the wound.  

    1. St. James Brotherhood is drifting rudderless
       Darwin,

       I get the impression that because Patriarch Torkom has been ailing for some time, the St. James Brotherhood is drifting rudderless. Some of the clergy are taking advantage of the situation, as the editorial, I believe, said, and are ignoring the Patriarch, who is probably too ill too impose his will.

       Besides, at this juncture mean-spirited and corrupt clergymen might nurse an exaggerated sense of their power: they could believe they would be courted ($$$$?) during the eventual election "campaign." Perhaps the Vehapar can influence the outcome of the inevitable election by talking to the 15 St. James Brotherhood clergymen who serve in overseas parishes. To get elected, a candidate needs 22 votes. I don’t know anything about the 10 clergymen from Armenia who are members of the St. James Brotherhood. One would assume that they could be influenced by the Catholicos in Holy Etchmiadzin during the election process.

    2. Reply

       Archbishop Torkom Manoogian is 93 years of age.  His age is not in his favor to handle such circumstances at the moment nor are the dynamics of the situation.

       The Patriarchate of Jerusalem is a separate entity and NOT under the jurisdiction of Etchmiadzin, therefore it would require changes to take place with the laws that govern the Armenian Patriarchate to have a new Patriarch selected under the influence of Etchmiadzin. 

       Further to this, only members of the Brotherhood of St. James can elect a new Patriarch and the laws are such, that the sitting Patriarch remains in office until he passes away.

       I know both Archbishops of whom you speak.  They both have their strong points  Given my knowledge of their capabilities, I would lean toward Archbishop Aykasian for the following reasons:  He has just completed his 2-year tenure as President of the National Council of Churches; He is multi-lingual; He is world traveled and knows many individuals of influence internationally; He is outstandingly gifted at dealing with people; He was born in the region-Turkey; He is smart and without question would know to immediately bring in the necessary business heads around him to handle the Patriarchate, the Israeli Government, the other primary/secondary Christian groups responsible for the Holy Sites as well as coordinate efforts with Etchmiadzin.

       This is a very complicated situation to which I do not believe the current Patriarch has much he can do about changing the course of events.  He, nor the Patriarchate are a government to be able to negotiate this situation with the Israelis.

11. When Catholicos Karekin

    When Catholicos Karekin visited Archbishop Torkom in February to bestow the Mesrob Mashdots medal on Torkom’s 20th anniveresary in Jerusalem, he invited two  members of the Brotherhood of St James to attend.. They were  Archbishop Khajag Barsamian, Primate of the Eastern Diocese, and Archbishop Vicken Aykazian, the Diocesan Legate.
     
    Both of the above archbishops are best known for their organizational strengths. This could possibly be a testing of the waters. Both Archbishops are 59 years old.

    I certainly would not want to see a conflict of parties rear its head again such as what happened between Derderian and Nersoyan.
     
    Lord give us strength!

     

12. “It is not the Promised Land. It is our Land”

    It’s very interesting that Stella S. Martirossian – see her comments – articulates a misconception and an ignorance whose consequences are real and have far reaching consequences as amply reported in July 5, 2010 issue of NY Times in an article titled “Tax-Exempt Funds Aid Settlements in West Bank”. Zealous Christian evangelicals donate to these tax-exempt funds for the very same reason articulated by Stella. For most of its existence, Jerusalem has been under Islamic rule. However, throughout those centuries the sanctity of Jerusalem was honored and its integrity kept intact. Not a single stone in Jerusalem was removed, or transplanted somewhere else. As a matter of fact for past 1300 years, the doorkeeper of the Holy Church Sepulcher, the site of the cru fixation, has been a Moslem family.
     

    However, there is an ugly reality unfolding right before our eyes under the Israeli occupation – the least of which is Orthodox Jews spitting on Christian monks – which is depriving the sanctity and integrity of Jerusalem and many zealous Christians conveniently seem to ignore it. Quoting from the same article: “These people are filled with ideas that this is the Promised Land and their duty is to help the Jews,” said Izdat Said Qadoos of the neighboring Palestinian village. “It is not the Promised Land. It is our land.”

13. The Importance of the Christian, Jewish and Moslem Holy Sites

    I have spent time in Jerusalem, my first visit going back as early as 1966.  It is probably the most intriguing and mysterious city I have been to throughout my extensive international travels.

    It is very unfortunate that this unending conflict between the Jewish and Moslem people has continued for thousands of years.  Part of me wants the struggle to end by letting the Jews have their Israel with the displaced Moslems finding home and futures throughout the Moslem world.  Surely, there is enough land available for those countries to welcome their brethren.
    The continual argument of whose land it is has no doubt been a major sticking point for thousands of years.  If one accepts what the Bible says, then God did in fact promise the ‘land of milk and honey’ to His chosen.  ONLY, there is one point that the Jews of the world may have chosen to overlook…they were promised this land by God, IF they adhered to God’s Covenant. 

    Unfortunately, they have not…so should they, from a religious point of view, be entitled to this land?  I say this without malice, as I also believe that many other religious groups have also failed to follow God’s Covenant…as we all basically share the same Covenant with God.  Or have I missed something?
    What concerns me, at the moment, is the fact that the Israelis seem to have lost memory of their many trials and struggles.  It wasn’t that long ago that they were slaughtered at the hands of the Nazis with everything taken away from them.  So the continual irritating point in my mind is ‘why are they behaving in such an aggressive manner’?

    I firmly believe that Jerusalem is the most important Holy Place for Christians, Jews and Moslems throughout the world, has with it a built in power for the state of Israel.  If, Israel begins a campaign to eliminate this critical weapon in their arsenal…they will eventually cause their undoing.
    Would the Christians, as an example, of the world be as deeply concerned about Israel if Jerusalem was wiped out of its Holy Sites?  For those who strongly believe that Jesus will return in Israel, the fact remains is that Jesus can return anywhere He so wishes to do.

    I strongly suggest that the Israeli government take a second look at what they are doing and discontinue on this path that might eventually have many of their supporters look upon them with less favor.

    1. Reply to Ms. Chorbajian

       1. The conflict in Palestine is not between Jews and Moslems. It’s between Palestinian Arabs and Israelis, the latter mostly from overseas. For your information, many Palestinian Arabs, including leaders and intellectuals, are Christian. To call the conflict "between Jews and Moslems" is like calling the Armenian vs. Azeri conflict one of Christians vs. Moslems. Mischievous or misinformed people like to reduce the Palestine conflict to a religious quarrel.

       2.  Contrary to your description, the conflict is not a thousand year old. It began in 1917 with the colonian Britain’s illegal Balfour Declaration which promised to Jews that Palestine would become their homeland.

       3. Using the bible as a book of history serves no constructive purpose in an intellectual debate. And to continue to believe that Jews are the Chosen People of God is racism in reverse. What are Gentiles? Chopped liver?

       4. Re the Nazis and the Holocaust, Israelis learned cruelty from the Nazis. They also learned racism.

       5. It seems the Israeli government wants to turn the Christian part of Old Jerusalem into a Christian theme park (with some token Christians), which would enrich Christian-hating Israelis with money from naive, misguided or ignorant Christian tourists/pilgrims.

       1. Reply
          Dear Hayorti:

          In all due respect to your points…I beg to differ with your line of thinking.

          Although the core of the problems in Isreal are between Jews and Palistinians…the real story goes way beyond this.

          Two months prior to 9/11, I was having dinner with a friend here in NYC who was a VIP at the United Nations. This very subject of Israel and the Palestinians came up when I asked her what the pulse on the situation was via the U.N.  She said, "If the Western world thinks that this problem is only about those two groups of people, they are mistaken. The true threat toward us is the ‘whole Arab’ world". We all know what happened shortly thereafter and has not ended there.

          Further to this, I came across the following article that just appeared in the Jerusalem Post, 7/19/10 entitled the Zionist Imam. You may go to that article via: http://www.jpost.com/ChristianInIsrael/Blogs/Article.aspx?id=181905

          The Christian world is not threatening the Jews. Quite the contrary. The support of the Christian world, that I have mentioned, is a very powerful force for the Jews. It is the tsunami, which is building as support for the Palestian’s by the Arab world, most particularly the Moslem Arabs.

          As for the beginning of this conflict…I have been attending Torah classes for 4 years.  It is one of many biblical classes I have seriously participated in over the last 15 years, with the intent of learning from various teachers and scholars about the contents of the bible. Thus far, my experience in those classes has shown me that the conviction of the Jews about their place in Israel has ‘everything’ to do with what has been written in the Torah.

          Whether the Torah or the Bible or the Koran is or is not documented history…a great many people live and die by it. That, to me is what makes it a key factor in this entire complex puzzle. Being too academic about the situation has nothing to do with the reality.

          If you believe that the Jews where not God’s chosen people and it is racism…you might check with some high-ranking Christian leaders to ask their opinion on the subject. Without question we are all God’s children, but at the time of this designation, as I was told by His Beatitude Archbishop Torkom Manoogian, Armenian Patriache of Jerusalem, the Jews were the only group of God’s people that were suitable enough to accept God’s Commandments.

          1. Armenian Jerusalem Besieged
             Dear Ms. Chorbajian,

             Thank you for taking the time to respond to my email.

             Unfortunately, I can’t reply because your email is incomprehensible.

             1. Sorry you find it so.  Others
                Sorry you find it so.  Others who have read it and know of the situation there, and in the Middle East, did not find it incomprehensible.  Maybe we are on two different planets.

14. Joyce, I believe the wheels

    Joyce, I believe the wheels are turning. After all, one only has to look how Archbishop Torkom moved from the diocese back to the Brotherhood. Vehapar has a stong influence in these matters because many of the clergy are from Hayastan. I certainly hope that a replay is inevitable. Aside from that, the fundamental matter is the feeling of isolation in Jerusalem. What can be done about it? President Sargsyan should give up one of his quail expeditions and take a pilgrimage to the venerable sights in Jerusalem. It would do wonders for the community there and also raise the president’s prestige. I do remember asking archbishop Torkom jokingly if he was going to ever retire before he went to Jerusalem. He told me he only answers to a higher authority. Love that man!

15. Remember the preceding presidents

    This is an answer to the person, who said, let the president of Armenia travel to  Jerusalem and show concern.

    Remember both last 2 Armenian presidents who took money from Mormons, Christan Scientologist Church and Jehovah’s Witnesses and allowed them to enter Armenia and practice. I hope you will get my drift.

16. What Happened to the Number of Readers?

    One of the features I liked about keghart was displaying of the number of readers of the article along with the number of readers who rated the article and the rating scale. The  number of readers is not being displayed anymore. I am not sure if it is by design or is temporary glitch to be corrected. After all, the number of books sold catapults a book on the best seller list. I do not see any reason why the number of readers should not be displayed as well. In the long run, the number may indicate where anx in what type of articles the readers of Keghart gravitate to read. It is good information to have for it’s own sake.

    1. Counter
       Dear Vahe,

       It was not by design at all that the counter was "lost". On the contrary, Keghart.com team installed the feature exactly for the reasons that you mention, and we wanted both the authors and the readers to know how many readers have visited a particular item. It had a cumulative character to it. Over time some of the articles were visited by more than 10,000 viewers.

       I am not knowledgeable on the technical aspect and the webmaster will look into the matter. From what I understand the system was overloaded on a couple of occasions when many readers clicked at the same time, specially when new items were posted. This caused disruption (not to mention hacking on a few occasions in the past). Some features were removed. I hope the webmaster reinstalls the counter.

       Paregamoren,

       Dikran

17. Amazingly the United States

    Amazingly the United States Government looks the other way when it comes to the matter of who resides in the holy land. America, since its inception, has a well documented record of how it treats indigenous peoples. But for America to take sides in this matter is blasphemous. No matter because as we Armenians are learning, our rights in  Karabagh have nothing to do with western realities. We will get crushed in Jerusalem just as we will lose more of our historic homeland to expediency.

18. To Joyce

    To Joyce, When, as you say, Torkom supposedly said the Jews were the only people capable of following the commandments, was that before or after he was spit on?

    1. Darwin: I think if you knew
       Darwin:

       I think if you knew Archbishop Torkom Manoogian as well as I do, you would never ask such a question!

       You question does not dignify a further response.

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